> If the Palestinians stop defending themselves with terrorism would Israel play nice? I’d love to see that scenario.
That's easy -- just take a look at the West Bank. The response to Palestinian "pacifism" (or whatever we can call what is happening in the West Bank) is apartheid, continuous seizure of land and colonization, nightly raids, military law for civilians and children for everything and anything, constant terrorist attacks by extremist settlers protected by IDF, etc.
Its a thorny issue so I will point out that this is the exact line of argument of Israel for their behaviour.
In 2005 they left their settlements in Gaza, it was met with the death of democracy, the establishment of a terror group as the local goverment and 18 years of endless escalations of violence.
In the 90s Israel voted for a socialist leader who offered so much to Israel that 80% of Israel thought he had offered too much. Palestine denied the 2 state solution. The Israeli leader was killed by local far right terrorists. And after Palestine stepped out of the talks they launched the 2nd intifada which was the largest amount of violence since 1967 war.
Israel 20 year decline into far right goverments comes on the back of what seemed to them genuine efforts for peace, genuine offers (some over gracious, despite Palestinians feeling it wasnt enough) and the removal from the palestinian side to come to the table.
Since the Camp David accords Israel has had 3 peace offers, Palestine did not even come to the table for 2 of them.
As appaling as the current state of settlements in the west bank is, and the far right members of goverment. Israel had 5 elections 2 years ago and the far right only won by a marginal difference. The worst Israeli goverment ever is an unsustainable allience after 5 elections of deadlock. The political will in Israel has always been peace.
> The Israeli leader was killed by local far right terrorists.
Incited in large part by Netanyahu, who was determined to sabotage Oslo and who openly denied the possibility of a 2-state solution.
[1]
> On October 5, the day the Knesset had endorsed Oslo II by a majority of one, thousands of demonstrators gathered in Zion Square in Jerusalem. The leaders of the opposition were on the grandstand while the demonstrators displayed an effigy of Rabin in an SS uniform. Netanyahu set the tone with an inflammatory speech. "Today the surrender agreement called Oslo II was placed before the Knesset," he said. "The Jewish majority of the State of Israel did not approve this agreement. We shall fight it and we shall bring down the government."
Also for all of Rabin's positives, he still insisted on expanding West Bank settlements during the Oslo interim period.
> after Palestine stepped out of the talks they launched the 2nd intifada
Ariel Sharon is responsible for the Second Intifada, his fascist march on the Temple Mount was a deliberate provocation.
> The political will in Israel has always been peace.
When have hey ever accepted a two state solution? They have denied everyone since 1947, in Oslo they agreed that resolution 338 (the 1967 borders) should be the basis for negotiation but Arafat walked out of Camp David despite what many Palestinians considered favorable terms and what most Israeli's considered an over generous offer.
> Incited in large part by Netanyahu, who was determined to sabotage Oslo and who openly denied the possibility of a 2-state solution.
His rise to power happened 2 years after though, after an entire year of Hamas suicide bombings. He was not ahead in the polls until the security situation went completely tits up.
If a crazy person kills the president (like in Japan 2 years ago, or in America with JFK) there is no sudden far right take over. If a country is attacked by its neighbour, people who promise security tend to do well in the polls.
> Also for all of Rabin's positives, he still insisted on expanding West Bank settlements during the Oslo interim period.
The settlements are a complicated subject. There are some legitimate reasons for some of them, and the reality of the two state solution is that land swaps will happen.
The 1967 war ended in 6 days and ended with incredibly awkward borders. It is not unnatural that Israel and Palestine wrestle for borders that make more sense geographically. (Belgium and Germany did this post ww2 and now most of their border is forest or rivers, mountains. The usual suspects for national borders).
There are however also religious settlements, formed by crazy people based on ridiculous readings of the torah. All of those should be burned to the ground with every person on them jailed, and the leader of the movement who I shall not named probably put in a cross due to her devotion to religious literature.
Talking about settlements as a whole makes the conversation too broad and unfocused, and I doubt all military outposts that exist will be dismantled when peace is achieved.
> Ariel Sharon is responsible for the Second Intifada, his fascist march on the Temple Mount was a deliberate provocation.
Its pretty cool how people have no agency. Lets ignore that the temple mount is more holy to the jews than to muslims. And lets act like a far right agitator is purposefully going to somewhere holy.
Imagine Trump goes to the vaticam. Do you think that the pope would use a loud speaker to tell people to attack him Abu Qteish did?
Or that Italians would suicide bomb around american civilians for the next 3 years?
Like even if we take Ariel visit as provacation, even if we hold him repsonsible for the horrible mismanagement of the police during his interior minister time, we hold him responsible for every death occured in every over trigger happy incident. Why fall for the bait? Why kill innocent people who are not responsible for his actions?
Also if we are gonna use the word fascist, I think its important to note the different countries and structures between Israel and lets say Gaza. Fascism purges "the other", there are no minorities in Gaza. Israel has 20% arab population and 7% other (mostly chrristians). Fascism promotes youth and violence as means of authority. Gaza has the youngest population in the world, and a military dictatorship as a goverment. A big part of fascism is social hierarchy, in the case of Gaza a strong men over women duplicity is seen across all civilian and political life. And finally an important aspect of fascism is the idea of forming an empire. This tracks with two biggest groups in Gaza having ideas about a pan arabic caliphate.
> Liar. [1] Shlaim - The Iron Wall
To begin with "the political will" usually refers to the people
here is some of the data from 03 - 12 during a series of escalations of violence the Israeli opinion was still very much in favour of a two state solution. This has been the case since 1947.
Now in response to the book. I will say that I love the work the new Historians are doing but Shlaim is with Benny Morris one of the modern historians where its very easy to see their ideology through their work.
and here is Benny Morris (who despite being racist towards arabs recently has written and opened most of the secrets about the formation of Israel) talking about the blind spots of the Iron Wall.
Another thing to point out is that Shailm tends to ignore things that are inconvinient. For example in that interview he emphasises the push from Egypt to normalise relationships with Israel in the 50s. He somehow forgets that the Egyptian push for the 1947 was crazy. Azzam Pasha leader of the arab league said " it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades". With the King Farrouk later repeating the sentiment saying "the jews will be expelled from Palestine". So that same state "reaching out" less than 5 years later is pretty throny and it seems irresponsible to call that Israel rejecting peace, when at the time the Suez Crisis was bubbling and Egypt had tons of troops in Gaza.
> It's quite strange to write off fully half the population of Israel
I am not trying to, the decline towards right wing politics has been slow but never ending since the early 2000s. But its important to note that 20% of the Israeli population is arab israeli and their voices also matter. The 50% is usually the 50% of Israeli jews not of all Israelis.
> including an assassination coup
If you meant the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, I did mention it in my comment
> directly funding Hamas asa weapon again Fatah/ the West Bank
I would not give intentions to actions taken by political actors in Israel. I was just pointing out that the narrative of "if Palestine does not fight back they get settlements" is the same as "if the IDF is not strong then Palestine will vote for hamas and more oct 7th's".
The blockade of money going to gaza was criticised as well before the money was allowed to reach Hamas. Building a narrative against Israel is fairly easy regardless of which actions they take, so I understand why the "they arm hamas to destabilise Fatah" took hold, but the main source for it is an unsourced quote that netanyahu was claimed to have said at a private Likuud meeting. It is entirely possible he did say it, and it would fit with some of the intentions of some of the more aggresive members of his cabinet. But there is no proof this was not just them caving to the international pressure they suffered post 2011 blockade which Obama heavily criticised as well as europe as being excessive etc.
> as being not responsible for their own actions.
I am pointing out narratives, nothing else. In the same way pointing out West Bank settlements is not justifying oct 7th, pointing out the fact that the removal of them in Gaza was met with the voting in of Hamas does not justify any of the aggresive policies in the west bank and east jerusalem.
Since 1947 both countries have created 2 narratives, now both are so divorced from each other that most of the time they talk past each other. In most conflicts there is 1 narrative, in some there is 2 for a bit and then a winner gets to write their side. In this conflict for the past 70 years the two stories have grown in a myriad of complicated ways
That's easy -- just take a look at the West Bank. The response to Palestinian "pacifism" (or whatever we can call what is happening in the West Bank) is apartheid, continuous seizure of land and colonization, nightly raids, military law for civilians and children for everything and anything, constant terrorist attacks by extremist settlers protected by IDF, etc.